Rich Learning: Conversation Circle Summary

How can the power of tutoring and tiny group conversations be harnessed to improve the quality of Quaker religious education? 

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ICH LEARNING IS A RESEARCH-BASED EDUCATIONAL APPROACH with potential to deepen religious education in monthly and yearly Quaker meetings. Since the 1980s, we’ve had growing scientific evidence that a lot of children do not learn very well in a whole-group context for reasons ranging from serious learning differences to simply not enjoying it, and yet we also know all children can learn from
tutoring/mentoring/counseling/conversation when the ratio is no larger than 3 students per teacher. 

In these conversations, Dean Leeper from Atlanta Friends Meeting will share his experiment with recruiting more adults to support first day school in order to change at least part of each lesson into learning within a tutoring modality. He will discuss research on tutoring/mentoring/conversation/counseling in small groups and facilitate a conversation on how these insights interact with Quaker values and practices. 

QUERIES

• How can we open opportunities for rich learning in Quaker RE programs?
• In what ways does rich learning align with Quaker faith & practice?
• How can rich learning be adapted to small meetings and large meetings?
• What kind of questions will open a conversation?
• What skills can support adults to engage in rich learning with children?
• How can rich learning provide an opportunity for parents and children to learn Quaker faith & practice together?
• How could we structure intergenerational time in our meetings to make use of rich learning principles and practices?

Dean Leeper, Atlanta Friends Meeting

Dean shared the benefits and research behind tutoring vs. classroom teaching. He is a teacher and served as the principal of a charter school in Atlanta focused on the tutoring model with no more than 6 students per teacher. The approach yielded such positive outcomes that it came to the notice of the Atlanta public schools and was asked to expand. It became so large that it lost the essential core of 6 students to a class. Dean has been researching this question ever since and currently coaches parents using this model.

Classroom teaching is the most common model because of the resources allotted to teaching. It’s the norm, not because it is the best tool, but because it aligns with the resources we have available. 

Tutoring is more effective, and it’s a natural fit for meetings with a few children per adult.

Tutoring, mentoring and coaching align with the Quaker principle of drawing from within. Tutoring uses basic human powers that are used in coaching and therapy.

• It is natural to read minds to have an idea of what the other person is thinking, called “theory of mind.” There is a limit though.  We can’t read more than 3 brains at once.
• Scaffolding our conversations is also natural, to shape our messages based to non-verbal and verbal responses from our listeners.

We do both intuitively when we talk with each other. 

There is a tipping point: 1 teacher with 3 students is as effective as 1-1.  Any greater ratios and we lose the value of tutoring.

The education field knows that tutoring is more effective than classroom instruction and that it is not possible to have a real conversation with more than four people. Psychology has the same understanding of conversations. Called “The 4 people problem” or “The dinner party problem” there is a threshold of 4 people for a true, interactive conversation. Any larger, and people break into small conversations rather than one focus because we don’t have conversation with more than 4 people at once. 

Conversation is a form of tutoring and is very beneficial to children. Dean recommends, The Art of Talking with Children, by Rebecca Rolland. The benefits of ‘rich talk’ with children include:

• Enhanced creativity
• SEL, empathy, confidence
• Verbal skills
• Builds relationships 

Rich talk ABCs:

• Adaptive – how attuned are we to the child? Where are they at minute to minute
• Back & Forth – conversation involves turn taking, not a monologue.
• Child centered – be curious about what the child is thinking, doing. Show that you are listening by asking questions that deepen the conversation. 

Tutoring benefits to children:

• More academic learning, retaining, understanding, boosts test scores
• Richer social and emotional learning.
• Can turn moments of stress into moments of growth. When there are fewer children, a conflict or a stresser becomes growth opportunity. The teacher can get curious about the child and learn their perspective. When the child feels heard the conflict is more easily resolved and becomes a learning opportunity.
• Higher engagement, more curiosity
• Tutoring supports learning differences which means the children enjoy the process more
• Small groups strengthen and deepen relationships
• Builds empathy, self-awareness, and enhances creativity
• Builds language skills
• Turn-taking fosters whole brain integration and has cognitive benefits
• Children learn from conversation with people who can regulate emotions
• It’s not just hearing words, but engaging in conversation that builds language skills 

Tutoring benefits to tutors:

• We benefit from stronger relationships with children. It’s good for our mental health.
• We learn from children
• Builds our social skills
• Personal fulfillment,
• Intergenerational connection benefits communities
• Lowers the bar for who can be successful. 

How do the benefits of rich talk and tutoring align with Quaker faith & practice?

• Quakers have always held children in regard as human beings. The tutoring model works very well with a few kids. In Quaker religious education we use wondering questions and share books with values.
• In Philadelphia Yearly Meeting intergenerational relationships work really well when there is a relationship. These types of conversations lend themselves to building strong community across ages.
• There is power in listening and responding to the Light of God in everyone. This also opens up the number of people who could go into a First Day School class and build relationships.
• In most churches, the leader goes off to seminary and learns “the stuff” (doctrine, theology, liturgy, etc.) then comes back to share with the congregation. With Quakerism, we listen and learn the Quaker experience from different people, try it out, and reflect back. To grow in Quaker faith and practice we need someone to listen.
• Most classes require 2 adults per class for safety reasons. With 2 adults and 3 children, can you have a conversation?
• Dean: Yes, you would have one child with one adult in one circle, and one adult with two children at another. In Atlanta we have brought in more adults in a class of 15 kids. We have a whole group story or activity, then separate into small groups.
• It’s really more playing together than instruction and response. It works better if we are creating something together that emphasizes the theme. IT’s helpful for children to have something to do while digesting the story.
• I wonder if an invitation to show and tell around the theme would be a good conversation starter.
• One room schoolhouse: Conversation groups could have children/youth of differing ages or similar ages. When there are small group conversations with ability to attend to the specific needs of the children in each small group it allows children to learn from each other. Having young people share their Light with each other is important.
• Taking turns is a concept we use when we introduce worship sharing. Friends of all ages do this.
• We are now in a meeting where children have less experience in Meeting for Worship than in our previous meeting. In First Day School, children were happy to respond in the wondering, but in intergenerational Meeting for Worship were unable to speak aloud even after prompting. I wonder about the sacredness of the intimacy in the small group of First Day School, and wonder how to introduce that into children’s interaction with the wider meeting.
• Dean: I see a missed opportunity because adults want to interact with kids, but it isn’t a skill we have taught people. Having a project that adults and children are doing together is helpful to deflect some of the intensity we feel that gets in the way of conversation. I don’t like to speak in Meeting either, I can relate to the kids.
• How do you solve the issue of not having enough tutors?
  • Dean: I ask adult Friends, “Who would be willing to have conversation with a child while you work on something together?” Also, Atlanta Meeting separates preschool, lower elementary, upper elementary, middle school and high school. Sometimes we mix age groups for activities and older kids take younger ones under their wings. I’ll note that when you are working on some subjects you cannot have wide age range. 
  • Subject-matter specific: We have a storyteller for the whole group, then we break into small groups. There is a prompt, a sequence of questions to dive deeper. Small groups work on a project, and adults have a list of questions they can use. A lot of adults don’t need that. Sometimes it just unfolds naturally. By making it easy and natural we encourage adults to try it.
• Do you have a curriculum or an outline from week to week? No, we would want to have the same people coming back week after week, but some of those people want to be in Meeting for Worship. That said, it would be good to have an outline. Lack of curriculum leads to more unpredictable subjects.
• In our Meeting there is a man who picks one of the four gospels, reads a passage to the class and then they talk for 15 minutes, they eat snacks and play games. A lot of social learning goes on when he asks, “What do you think is going on in this story?” Bible passage selection is the curriculum.
• We hope you are keeping records of stories and projects so others can learn from your example. 

Dean asked the group for help with a case study. The Atlanta Friends Meeting held an annual retreat which showcased how much opportunity there is outside of First Day School to introduce this kind of teaching in Quaker Meetings. He is developing a leading for how to be helpful with his meeting. 

Query: What could we do differently in the next retreat?

Situation: There were 40 adults and 15 kids. The adult programming was not created in collaboration with the people who created children’s programming, which created a generation gap. The kids were off doing one thing, and adults were doing another for the whole weekend except the talent show. At meals there were kids’ tables and little mixing of generations.

Adults had a lot of rich talk in groups of 4. The kids didn’t have rich talk, at least not formally.  There was one girl who wanted to sit at the adult table and have a conversation. Dean engaged with the kids, built forts and looked for opportunities for rich talk. There was no training for adults on how to engage kids in conversations, questions such as, “What would rich talk be and how is it beneficial for children?”  There weren’t enough adults to have rich conversations with kids, and when conflicts broke out, there wasn’t enough conversation or relationship to explore the conflict.  Conflict is great opportunity for rich talk, but only if there is a 1/3 ratio.  When Dean left the adult program to be with the kids, he felt a sense of being excluded from the rest of the retreat. He also did not have an opportunity to have a rich talk with the other adults who were working with the children. It wouldn’t be too hard to do things differently to have rich talk among Friends of all ages. 

• In my childhood, I didn’t have a regular meeting or First Day School, but I did encounter Quakers quarterly meeting. In Western Canada we shared work with all ages and did the chores together. When I was 11, the kids stayed up all night. The adults made us do kitchen duty in the morning, which was a learning experience.
• I’m still struggling to find people to consistently be with groups of young people. No one wants to miss Meeting for Worship or worship sharing. I’m thinking of having a group meet in the afternoon during free time for people who have been with the children during worship sharing.
• This was a really fun example of an intergenerational program that we had at Philadelphia Yearly Meeting’s spring sessions. The small groups consisted of adults and youth together. Young Friends Get Loud (and Stretchy!) in a Workshop on Navigating Disagreements · Philadelphia Yearly Meeting
• In my meeting we did a Mystery Friends exercise, pairing children and adults as anonymous pen pals for a number of weeks. Children and adults wrote to each other and/or drew pictures. Parents were invited to read the letters with their children. At the end we hosted a pizza lunch with a ‘big reveal’ in which children guessed who their adult pen pal was. Some of the relationships have continued to this day.
• Our meeting tried to share the ratio of 3 kids to 1 adult. We created a program that meets monthly with the goal being about adults who want to develop relationships with children. We brought Quaker conversations in as the relationships started to develop.
• What if kids and adults had to do clean up or kitchen work together?
• What if there were things adults and kids could have done or made together to explore the theme?
• Do we have more people than we think we have? More people would volunteer if they thought it would be enjoyable and if they don’t have to leave the adult community to do it.
• On the first day of a retreat, the whole group can build in expectations for intergenerational community, acknowledging that there will be a need to segregate for age-related activity at some points.
• How can we promote learning in organic community?
• We have been dealing with this in my meeting. We have a great First Day School program, but it’s separate from the adults. We have growing number of kids coming. We start Meeting for Worship together, then the kids leave for First Day School. On third Sundays, kids stay for the whole hour. Some kids sit with their parents, but we place a quilt in the middle and clipboards with a thick pad of paper and crayons. I ask kids at the rise of meeting, “Are there any pictures to share?” We will mail the picture to adults who were not able to attend the meeting.  The adult writes back and gives the note to the parents. Adults volunteering in First Day School, are starting to meet the kids, write back and get to know the kids. On Soup Sundays, kids sit with adults who are not their parents.
• I hope you have good safety in Meetings because it is best to exercise caution when you have children and adults developing relationships. [See QREC conversation circles on Child Safety in Meetings.]
• In the summer all ages of kids are together. We were inside and questions came up among the kids about parallel universes. Kids started to have dialog. One kid said he believed, but his dad was not comfortable. As adult facilitators, we need to support what people say, support the dialog, although the teacher has a responsibility to ensure that the conversation does not go off in weird directions. The kids have a lot of depth.  Kids have a meaningful meeting that is age appropriate. You can always build bridges with activity, especially food.  It was good to see how the kids helped each other.  A lot of spontaneity can come out if you allow for a flow, flexibility and step back.
• Our meeting has had small groups, though it is growing lately. We have negative reactions from adults when we ask them to engage in intergenerational activities. If you don’t have children who come on a consistent basis, you have to start each time with basic questions. You don’t get to deeper tutoring questions. How can we get depth in the small amount of time we have rather than the children waiting for the adult to give an explanation.
• Dean: You have to start at the beginning. At the retreat I got deeper with adults I have never had a deep conversation with, and I loved what they had to say. The conversation had just enough structure that it allowed us to go deeper. 
• Sometimes it is helpful to be in the conversation, but weighing our power dynamic as an adult with children, to remove ourselves a bit and encourage the children to share. Don’t come in as if we are at the same level as the child. I feel some of the skills we learn in worship sharing can be helpful, where we are not just answering back, but we are following the lead. We may have more skills than a child, but we have to get out of the way and allow learning to occur.
• The model is somewhat different than parents expect. I labeled First Day School as “children’s meeting” Then we report back to the Meeting on our adventure.  We start with a check in, then use a mood meter which is a matrix: How much energy do you have? How pleasant do you feel? Children place a magnet where they are.  Children can ponder and wonder. We need a few phrases like “We have seen how love changes lives.” When we say the prompts to adult worshippers and it helps them reflect. 
• It may be good to work through the Ministry and Counsel Committee to see if there are adults in the meeting who would be interested in developing a relationship with a child in the meeting and check in consistently when they come. In a previous meeting, I was concerned about a child who was coming part time because her parents had just separated. I decided to make a point of checking in and making sure she felt welcome when she came. It seemed valuable to her.
• My wife grew up in a meeting where adults had relationships with children. She remembered rich conversations.

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